EP7: Innovating the Fast Food Experience Through People Development

In this episode of Back to Basics, we sit down with Aaron Noveshen, Founder and CEO of Starbird Chicken, and one of the leading innovators in fast casual dining.

Aaron shares how Starbird is rethinking people development in one of the most competitive hiring markets—from building an internal leadership pipeline, to implementing transparent pay bands, to offering unique education and ownership opportunities for team members.

With a career that spans founding The Culinary Edge and co-founding Pacific Catch and World Wrapps, Aaron brings a rare blend of culinary creativity and operational excellence to the conversation.

Chapters
00:00 The Journey of Aaron Noveshen
04:46 Innovating People Development in Restaurants
09:37 Attracting and Retaining Talent
13:13 Transparency and Economic Mobility
18:45 The Role of Technology in Modern Restaurants
23:10 Investing in People Development
26:37 Lessons from Early Career Experiences

About Us
Opus is the hospitality training platform purpose-built for the frontline. Train 100% of your team in 101 languages on the job to quickly get them up the productivity curve. With full visibility across your workforce, you get the frontline business intelligence needed to drive your business.

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Transcript

Rachael Nemeth: 0:00

Hi everyone, today on Back to Basics. I'm sitting down with someone I deeply respect. Aaron is the founder and CEO of Starbird Chicken, probably one of the most innovative fast food brands out there today. He also founded the Culinary Edge, where he helped grow brands like Starbucks, Sweet Green, First Watch, and yes, Starboard. And in this episode, we're going to be digging into how you develop people in the restaurant industry, especially when your workforce spans generations, backgrounds, learning styles. So, Aaron, welcome to Back to Basics. Nice to have you here.

Aaron Noveshen: 0:36

Wonderful to be here. Thanks for having me on today.

Rachael Nemeth: 0:39

I've been excited for this talk. You are a chef, you're a consultant, you're a founder. Can you share a little bit about your journey? What led you to start the Culinary Edge and how did that evolve into Starbird?

Speaker: 0:51

Sure. Well, I had a passion for food my whole life. People always asked, you know, how did you become a fine dining chef? And I always would tell them that when I was about two or three years old, I realized I didn't like the way that my sister made macaroni and cheese. And uh you know, told her, hey, you're putting too much milk in there. You're watering this stuff down. It's like you're not really getting the richness and the essence of all the cool things that are in that cheese package.

Rachael Nemeth: 1:18

So are those the exact words you used?

Speaker: 1:21

That's where I remember them in my head. But I do remember standing on the stool by the the the step stool by the stove. I I think I was curious at an early age. So I used to cook for the family. Uh it was just a passion of mine. I I think I always knew I wanted to be in the food business, a restaurant business, and be a chef. I had I was fortunate enough to go to school in Berkeley uh to study business. I got an undergraduate business degree there. And while I was there, I I was cooking and learning about food and very inspired by sort of early California cuisine, you know, was pretty pretty big back then, and the chefs that I came into contact with and the food culture. So from there I, you know, became a fine dining chef and went through that grind and realized that that only tapped into maybe one part of the things I was passionate about in the food and business, and became an entrepreneur and started a restaurant company with some guys uh called World Raps back in the mid-90s, the first rap concept, uh, which was pretty fun. And from there, I learned a lot. You know, you learn a lot more from your mistakes than you do your successes. We didn't necessarily exit that at the top of the heap, but learned a ton and started a consultancy from there. And I was passionate about fine dining, was learned about scaling businesses and just loved solving problems and working with people and learning and inspiring and continuing to be inspired. Uh, fast forward a couple years, started another restaurant company called Pacific Catch with my partner Keith Cox, who I worked with at the Culinary Edge, which has been great. We're 22 years running with that brand uh on the West Coast. And from there, the Culinary Edge grew quite a bit, right? So at consultancy, you know, working with a lot of the brands that you mentioned. And then uh we said, hey, I think it's time for the team to walk the talk, right? We're advising all these companies and brands and doing startups for others. Why don't we empower our team members, right? We're in the Bay Area in the teens of the 20s, and found that we're competing with a bunch of tech companies that could offer you know stock options and great programs. And and the way to wealth is not necessarily to be in the dollars for hours business, right? So the idea was hey, let's create a brand that we can scale, uh, empower and enfranchise our team members to own a piece of something, and prove out if we really can be successful in uh being the experts in this thing. And uh in many ways, we've been pretty successful at doing it. And uh, you know, we're 18 restaurants running right now, and uh feel feel really excited and inspired by the work that they do and the work that is being done at Starbird every day.

Rachael Nemeth: 4:13

Well, and I keep, you know, what really comes to mind when I think about Starbird is innovation in food, in tech, but you're also innovating on the people side of things. So why is that core to your business? Is it because it's core to you, or is it a competitive edge?

Speaker: 4:35

Yes, and yes, and yes, right. So my my parents were both teachers. Okay, so I grew up in a household where learning was embraced and the acquisition of knowledge to better oneself uh was just the culture of my household.

Rachael Nemeth: 4:51

Very transcendentalist.

Speaker: 4:53

Yes. And you know, I also worked in French restaurants where I learned an incredible discipline, right? And so the journey has taken me to a place where I'm, you know, take the best from these experiences and leave the rest, right? So I do appreciate the discipline and the rigor and the exactitude of working in a fine dining French restaurant. And I do also embrace and love the power of curiosity and education and empowerment, you know, that I that I learned from my my parents as teachers. That is very formative to what we do in Starbird. We when we think about our team and what what is our our culture at the at our company, it's it's about personal growth. And and we know that every single employee who works at Starbird isn't going to be there forever, right? But what's important is that while they're there and the journey that they're on, they're bettering themselves. They're becoming more educated, they're learning, they're being challenged in ways so that when they leave, whether it's in two years or 10, or maybe they're still there, you know, we're 10 years in, and we've got a couple from the beginning. Um, they can always say that this was a vital part of my development. And and we believe that as people are learning and being challenged and growing and creating more value for themselves, that it's a win-win, right? My general philosophy is that always seeking that win-win. If you talk to anyone who knows me, I bring it up all the time, whether I'm negotiating a contract or we're looking at real estate or we're looking at people who are coming up in the business. How do we all win in this situation? And I try to put that first.

Rachael Nemeth: 6:36

I'm curious, you've worked with some major brands, all of which operate quite differently. And so, you know, what's the common thread that you've noticed on how the successful brands are developing their people? Is it really coming back to this win-win philosophy? Or is there something deeper?

Speaker: 6:56

I think that the successful company, I mean, I what do we use as a KPI to measure these things? Like, are we winning with our people? And I I look at turnover enormously, right? And I also look at feedback from our team members to say, you know, are we doing better than we did last year? It's important to quantify these things, otherwise, you fall into a, I'm breathing my own exhaust that we're so great. And we have to be self-critical. So we look at companies that have low turnover, we look at companies that grow people from within. You know, as a fast growth, you have to bring some people from the outside, certainly, but who are committed to and have the systems and tools to allow for internal growth. And I look at those, that those as successful things. And also, you know, a successful business is one that has great, you know, cash on cash returns, great ROI, and in their taking care of shareholders and they're taking care of their people because that that gives those businesses the fuel to grow, right? So while we're investing in our people, we're also saying, how do we just be the best business we can be? And we believe that people are an integral part of what it means to be a great business.

Rachael Nemeth: 8:08

Well, and they're the ones who are interacting with your guests every day. They're the ones who are the face of the business, who are are driving revenue, who are driving growth. So it makes a lot of sense. I you referenced this earlier that you know, a lot of this people care and people orientation is also coming from how well you're you're training your people and also the benefits that you're providing them. So you've implemented some very unique approaches to attracting and retaining talent, especially I would assume in the vein of just reduction of turnover and maybe getting out ahead of it. So which initiatives are you most proud of?

Speaker: 8:51

The thing I'm probably most proud of is the thing that creates the greatest traction, right? We have things that we offer and we do that are great benefits that we learn, you know, have maybe not as much um attention or usage. Like we pay for people's education, we're happy to invest in that, right? And I always thought that wow, I want it to be the people who are on the front lines who are gonna take take this on the most. And and I realized that some of them do, but it's not like they're all knocking down the door and saying, Yes, I want to invest in my education. Some of them are working two jobs, they don't have time for these.

Rachael Nemeth: 9:29

Yeah.

Speaker: 9:30

So that's something that on the one hand, I'm excited about and I think it's an amazing differentiator. Um, but it may not be moving the change as much as I'd like it to, right? And we continue to offer it, we continue to invest it in it, and people continue to take advantage of it, which is great. And there's no reason why we will stop, because I think as we as we grow as a brand, we'll get more takers. Um, but we have some great stories around that. Uh, secondly, I think the biggest thing that we talk about is every single person in our organization should know what their next step is. What is my next role? What does growth look like for me? And so I've asked every team member does every single person who's working for you know what's next for them or what's possible? And have we provided the tools for you to articulate that meaningfully? And some of it, a lot of that comes from training tools. If you're a line employee, and well, I want to be a, you know, a trainer in the you know, the chicken cooking station. Okay. So how are they gonna become that? So having clear tools to be able for them to learn these tasks, ways to validate it is a big part of it. And they need to understand, well, you know, what's in it for them? Well, what's in it for them is likely A, more money and B, more impact. And C, you're gonna feel pretty good about yourself every day. You know, we're we're about the power of positivity at Starbird, and we want everybody to feel the sense of dignity and accomplishment so that they can wake up and say, hey, I go to, I have to go to work. We all have to go to work every day, right? But to say, okay, do I feel good about being at this place? Is it bettering myself? Am I around people who are are working on themselves and working on things that can allow for that? Yes. So I would say that that clarity of next step and um investing in the tools, whether it's on a line level or, you know, I have a senior manager who wants to become a director, right? Like it's a ton, a ton of work. But I find that there's a tremendous value to it that that pays longer term.

Rachael Nemeth: 11:37

Well, and and one thing that I think that's really interesting that Starbridge does is you publicly post your salary bans with career progression on your website. You know, when I think about what a good job is, the first thing that comes to mind is economic mobility. Then you think about benefits and all of those things. So I would guess that that's a lot of what motivated that decision. And I'm curious, have you seen it move the needle on recruitment and retention? Just being able to kind of publicly say this is what you could earn.

Speaker: 12:09

Absolutely. I think that clarity is good. And we don't limit upside either. We're firm believers in our general managers having a piece of, you know, everyone's got a budget, and we've fortunately been able to beat our budgets. We share with our managers that, you know, every dollar that they take in uh above what's been budgeted, which we believe is a pretty challenging budget every year, and one that we'd be happy with them achieving, they get a piece of that. And they're they're we're not limiting people's upside because you know, some people get disheartened if they're not going to make something and they they stop performing. But for the people who we try to attract and retain, they're always striving. They want more, they want to grow, they want money. We want to make sure that we're not limiting that ever.

unknown: 12:55

Yeah.

Speaker: 12:55

We also believe that transparency, like, here's what the path looks like, here's what the opportunities are, here's what you need to do. And we also say, like, you have to own it. You have to own your training just as much as we as a company need to own the tools and the path for you to take.

Rachael Nemeth: 13:10

And have the discipline behind it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do the the that really resonates with me. Um this whole concept of like accelerators. There's no cap here. You can really continue to move, but I feel like some companies um there's no internal examples of that. So, you know, like you said, you're hiring from outside, and you know, there's always phases where you need to bring in new expertise. So, where are you seeing the most examples of the bench being built right now internally?

Speaker: 13:48

Oh, it's really in our sort of restaurant manager programs, you know, supervisor to manager, manager to general manager. That that track is has been really effective. And we have recruited less from the outside than ever this past 24 months. So that I'm really excited about. Uh, we have much better success rate promoting from within than hiring from outside.

Rachael Nemeth: 14:13

I will say, yeah.

Speaker: 14:14

You know, because people, you know, we we literally just just recently we had a person come in from the outside, and this is an exception, but it reinstates my belief that we've got to invest in the internal development because we're just, you know, you know what you're hiring, or you might the person might not be as ready as this person look reads on paper, but we have this person work for two days and we're like, this place is just too busy. You know, like we're really, really busy. We're running, you know, four million dollar boxes and they're they're busy, right? And they're doing catering orders and preparation in the morning, and they're cranking out huge lunches and dinners and two, three thousand dollar hours, and there's a lot going on, and we make real food, it's fresh food. We're so you know, it's a real, it's a real place. So I say that because the the cost of recruiting from the outside and the failure rates that are potentially there that you that are hard. There's sometimes, you know, you you try and get better every day of hiring smartly.

Rachael Nemeth: 15:17

Yeah.

Speaker: 15:18

But the hit rates aren't as strong as the internal promotions.

Rachael Nemeth: 15:23

Something you said really struck a chord with me around uh that new employee saying, gosh, you guys are busy. You know, um when I hear that from my team, they they say it with like a huge smile on their face. You know, it's this no one wants to just be sitting around work tapping a pen, waiting for customers to come by or waiting for something to do. And I know, you know, we all in the industry grew up with if you can lean, you can clean. But the truth is, is like who would ever want to lean, you know? Um so like being busy is a point of pride, being able to go home and say, like, I I used my two hands to do all of these things. Um so it's almost like that's uh like a secret metric. Are you staying busy and and creating like meaningful work?

Speaker: 16:18

Um I think one thing about the restaurants today and our restaurants that are that are different from the sort of traditional, you know, way that people think about restaurants, you know, we're we're a we're a it's a different beast now. I mean, we take 80% of our orders digitally. And you think about that, you know, out of let's say 500 transactions a day, 400 of them come in digitally. So there the the needs, the technology understanding that's required today is much greater than it's ever been. And not just because we're taking orders digitally, we're we're using technology in every and any way. Ideally, we're we're using it to simplify things and to generate greater productivity. But if if someone is technology averse or they're old school, you know, I still come out with my you know handwritten checklist. Like there's not a lot, there's not a lot of paper in our restaurants. And and and I think, you know, obviously the tools that that that we're using with your company are are incredible in that way, like really forward thinking, and there was such a good fit for us in that way. Some people aren't ready for that, right? And it might seem something that that once they're able to master, they're able to be much better. But if they're they're bound to this old way of doing things, sometimes it's not a great fit. So we spend a lot of time now on our screening to try and really understand well, can this be taught to this person, right? Obviously, there's a lot of people who don't have skills, but if they can be taught that skills and they have a propensity for learning and understanding and desire, that's okay too. But some people are just stuck in their ways, right? That is just not not a good place for us. A lot of experience and stuck in your ways is is probably the antithesis of a success story at starboard.

Rachael Nemeth: 17:59

Well, the the thing that comes to mind is anybody who's listening right now is thinking, you know, traditionally, like franchisee equals stuck in their ways. There's kind of that that that persona.

Speaker: 18:13

I think much more highly of franchisees than that.

Rachael Nemeth: 18:16

Well, me too, right? And and but I I think it's not a knock on franchisees, it's it's the fact that like there are individuals who have been running businesses a certain way for many, many years, and now we're kind of entering this new era of restaurants and this new era of work. And so to kind of transition from the frontline, I'm curious how as you expand through franchising, franchisees are going to be responsible for their own people organization while representing the brand. So, how are you thinking about approaching that balance? So I guess it's less about how do you vet the franchisee and more about how do you teach the franchisee?

Speaker: 18:55

Yeah, I mean, a lot of it is firstly, we run a lot of corporate restaurants. We're primarily corporate restaurant run today. So everything comes from credibility. So if we can show to our franchisees the why of this is why we do this, and we're still we're open to their great ideas too. I'm not a fan of saving my way to prosperity. I want to have the highest sales and the highest sales per square foot because you know there's only so many napkins you can hand out one at a time to a guest to and and and make money, right? So, like let's let's think big every day. And so we're fortunate that that we're starting our franchising from uh from ground zero, and we've got you know many great partners signed on today. And a lot of it's like a shared philosophy. Do you do you know they may run restaurants in a in a legacy brand, and they may, and a lot of them are like, wow, we wish we had this stuff.

Rachael Nemeth: 19:54

That's probably right. Yes.

Speaker: 19:55

It's also harder, the bigger you become, the harder it is to bring in new technologies and bring in new things because it's just slow to implement. So we've done a good job to prepare ourselves to franchise by saying, okay, what are the things that we absolutely have to have in place before our first franchisee opens the door? And we've spent the last year getting rid of some old technologies and saying, this is where we're going the next three to five years, and it's gonna be hard to bring it into place right now, but now's the time because it's gonna be a lot harder to change when we've got others who are spending their money, not ours, to make that change.

Rachael Nemeth: 20:31

Well, that I mean, that whole balance of where do you overinvest, where do you underinvest when it comes to people development, where do you think restaurants in general are underinvesting right now?

Speaker: 20:48

Um well, just great recruiting processes. First of all, I think you, I don't think, I think we we and everyone I talk to, like to really do it well, it it's an insane investment because HR has become very challenging in the last five years, especially in California. Like the compliance alone is just next level, right? And then the technology to make everything tight and buttoned up is really hard. And and those things often take precedence over the luxury of great recruiting or whatever. So I think that um the you know, investing in people is always a great return. And the hidden costs of turnover, I mean, I've just I've I've realized it myself, and I'm guilty as you know, and and a lot of times, you know, you hire someone, you work with them for a year, and like, okay, this is clear this is not working, but God, I really want to, you know, there, I like this person. I want to give them the chance. And then, you know, it's like the the hire slowly, fire quickly, yeah, mantra. I I wish I practiced more myself, right? I I'm a believer in in people sometimes to a fault, and that's something that I really think about. And so recruiting obviously is key, but also knowing when to say, hey, this isn't necessarily this isn't working out. And not that you're not a great human being, it's just not the right job for the right person at the right time, right? Correct.

Rachael Nemeth: 22:14

Yeah, yeah. And especially, I mean, that's hard to see when your business is growing so quickly. And sometimes, I mean, I have this at Opus sometimes. I look back and I realize, oh my gosh, we just hit an entirely new stage in this company. And it's not just revenue related, it's these other pieces of the company that you realized you graduated from a senior in high school to a freshman in college, yeah. And you've got to completely rethink the business again.

Speaker: 22:41

Totally.

Rachael Nemeth: 22:42

Which is very fun, but it also means you have to think about who's within it, you know.

Speaker: 22:46

It's also amazing when you actually hire someone who is both experienced and really, you know, as a CEO, it's always about like you know, hire people who are better than you in all these things, right? You hear that, and you're like, okay, I wish I had the money to hire that person in every position because as a as a younger company, you don't always have that luxury. But as we grow and we've been able to invest in that type of senior talent, it's it's just eye-opening and refreshing. So wow, this is this is amazing. And it also frees, you know, frees me up to do the things that I can do better every day, too.

Rachael Nemeth: 23:23

Yeah. Well last question before we get into our lightning run. You've talked so much about people development, and I love your perspective on innovation. And it's it's like this unabashed approach to this is who we are, this is why it's important to invest where we are. I'm curious what lessons you learned early in your career that are still really guiding how you lead today.

Speaker: 23:56

I think there's something about setting the example and knowing when it's okay to show that you can get into the trenches with someone. But there's a point where it's actually healthy to delegate that trench work. And it's there's a level of sort of comfort and confidence that comes with knowing when you know this is what I'm going to be using my best time with. And I don't need to do all of these exact tasks elbow to elbow with everyone to get their respect. So just having a real sense of that.

Rachael Nemeth: 24:27

Yeah. I think there's like a misconception that when you're a CEO founder, that you've got delegation perfected, and we're all still wanting to get our hands dirty, especially if you've been in restaurants for years.

Speaker: 24:41

Yes. And I'm an operator at heart and I've been in the kitchens for many years. And I think it's it's you don't want to be the person who's so out of touch with what the people do. Like I do know I can go into every position on the line and make stuff, and I can work the fryer. And there's times when I really enjoy doing that. But sometimes it's it's just knowing when to say, okay, this is this is not the right time for that.

Rachael Nemeth: 25:04

Well, I challenged you before that this lightning round is something every CEO fails, and I would like for you to be the first, which is I'm gonna ask you four questions, and uh the the challenge is to answer them in one or two words, but you can't qualify them, you can't explain them. Um so we'll we'll end with that, uh, and then I'll see you at RLC next week. Um so Aaron, what was your first job ever?

Speaker: 25:40

Scorekeeper.

Rachael Nemeth: 25:42

All right. Intriguing. Will not ask for follow-up. Uh what's a food trend you're completely over?

Speaker: 25:54

Non-alcoholic cocktails.

Rachael Nemeth: 25:59

That's first. What piece of advice do you return to often?

Speaker: 26:14

Be real.

Rachael Nemeth: 26:18

And what's a skill that you're working on now?

Speaker: 26:23

Patience.

Rachael Nemeth: 26:25

A soft skill. Um, well, Aaron, thank you so much for joining. This is such a pleasure. Uh I love watching Starbird grow. You know, uh the story, the the your tech investments, but having such a a really heart filled kind of people first approach is really inspiring. So I really appreciate you sharing today. I know there's a lot more to talk about. Um, but uh thanks for giving us a glimpse behind the curtain.

Speaker: 26:53

That was great. Really enjoyed speaking with you today.

Rachael Nemeth: 26:56

Awesome. Thanks, Aaron.