“Back to Basics” with Rachael Nemeth
Back to Basics podcast cuts through the noise to focus on what matters in hospitality. Join Rachael Nemeth, CEO of Opus Training, as she talks with service industry leaders who are shaping today's workforce.
“Back to Basics” with Rachael Nemeth
EP9: Training as Brand Strategy
In this episode of Back to Basics, Rachael Nemeth sits down with Suzie Tsai, CEO of Bonchon, who brings a rare and refreshing perspective to restaurant leadership, with over 25 years of experience in brand and marketing at companies like Chili’s, On the Border, and Brinker International.
Now leading Bonchon through explosive growth—from 150 to 500 locations—Suzie shares how marketing instincts helped her zero in on what actually separates great restaurants from average ones: execution. And that starts with training.
They delve into how Bonchon utilizes Opus to ensure consistency across its global, multilingual workforce, why community engagement is a make-or-break metric for franchise success, and how training is more than an operational tool—it’s a brand strategy.
This episode explores the overlap between brand integrity, guest experience, and leadership development—and why in Suzie's view, marketers can’t afford to ignore what’s happening inside the four walls of the restaurant.
Chapters
00:00 Introduction to Suzie Tsai and Bonchon
01:50 Rapid Expansion and Challenges in Restaurant Growth
03:38 Understanding Brand Identity and Market Positioning
05:35 Riding the Wave of Korean Culture
09:11 The Importance of Training in Restaurant Success
12:53 Marketing and Customer Experience
15:47 Challenges in the Restaurant Industry
18:23 Building Community and Local Engagement
21:20 Franchisee Empowerment and Operational Flexibility
23:50 Leadership Development and Team Dynamics
27:34 Curiosity vs. Willingness to Learn
31:33 Creating a Culture of Learning and Trust
35:05 Final Thoughts and Lightning Round
About Us
Opus is the hospitality training platform purpose-built for the frontline. Train 100% of your team in 101 languages on the job to quickly get them up the productivity curve. With full visibility across your workforce, you get the frontline business intelligence needed to drive your business.
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Today on Back to Basics. I'm so excited to sit down with Suzy Sai, CEO of Bonchon, a global leader in Korean fried chicken. Suzy brings over 25 years of experience of marketing leadership and executive leadership, and I'm really excited to sit down and have her, because she's really our first CEO with the CMO background on the podcast. Right now she's scaling from 150 to 500 US units while also tackling what I think is one of the most underrated challenges in restaurant growth, which is building the operational foundations that actually support your marketing promises, especially when you're working with franchise partners who need to deliver on your brand experience, your brand promise without your direct oversight. So, Susie, welcome to Back to Basics. Thanks for being here.
Suzie Tsai:I so appreciate you having me on this platform. I'm Susie Sai, CEO of Banchan. Banchan is a 20-year-old or young brand. This whole K Korean culture is so popular and trendy. So we're riding that awesome wave. This year we've been busy because we've already opened 13 new locations. And tomorrow we have two more opening. So, you know, we are busy building restaurants, opening restaurants, and of course our franchise partners are, you know, running great restaurants, and uh that's all that's happening at Bon Chan today.
Rachael Nemeth:That's incredible. I mean, so you're pacing basically at two locations per month, basically, or a little more than that?
Speaker 1:We're trying. I mean, two would be great, right? We'd love to build over, you know, 20, 25, 30 restaurants this year. Um, and uh if we can, you know, stay on that track. But it's been it's been really challenging to build restaurants. I'm sure you know, Rachel, the the environment is really challenging. Real estate, um, capital, you know, all of these things that, you know, as a small business owner, who we are our franchise partners, our small business owners that they're facing. So we have to find really creative ways to, you know, support them and stay with them as they, you know, build their restaurants.
Rachael Nemeth:Well, and that's just the perspective that I want to land on today. You know, I think your point of view is unique in which you've spent 25 years in marketing at major brands like Chili's on the border, Brinker, before you joined Bonchon. Um, you know, what were some of the key lessons in that previous experience that really made you see so much potential in Bonchon, which is a much smaller brand than the previous brands you worked at?
Speaker 1:Yeah, Bonchan is small but you know mighty. And coming from such a great organization like Brinker, it really taught me what is sort of core and you know, and and in essence. And that's what I saw at Bonchan. At Chili's, because it's been around for 40 years, and same thing with On the Border and you know, all those great brands that I was, you know, part of. At the time when I was there, we were really having this identity crisis. And we used to call it in the casual dining world, you know, sea of sameness. Applebee's, chilies, you know, red lobster, you know, you know, Olive Garden. Everybody kind of offered the same level of experience, same price point. And you know, I think people were getting kind of bored of that category. And at the time, there was this, you know, bright sort of you know, category that we're calling Fast Casual Today that were popping up, Chipotle, Panera, and all of these great brands were popping up, and we really didn't know what to do. So we questioned who are we, what are we today, you know, what are we really good at? Who are we targeting? And when I came to Banchan, it was very clear. So while there's all of these other challenges as a small company, small brand, growing company that we have to face, I knew that there was something really meaningful here. And and when I look at our guests, it's very clear it's young Gen Zs, millennials, food lovers, they love our food. So that just alone gave me enough to say, you know, there's something really magical here. And and and then the fact that I see some really great models that our franchisees have built. So that gave me such uh you know assurance that wow, okay, there's there's there are these set of restaurants that are doing great. So I just need to figure out what they're doing so we can then you know make that consistent across the system.
Rachael Nemeth:Right, replicate the the it's so a lot of what you're saying resonates where you're you're taking um a lot of the challenges that you saw with previous brands, but that actually helps you identify what an opportunity bonchan was. And just before you were mentioning how K culture is really having this massive moment in America, I completely agree. Um and and honestly, globally right now, I think Korean culture is really having its moment. So how do you balance riding that cultural wave versus building something that's sustainable and meaningful when those trends shift at whatever point they may?
Speaker 1:Uh I, you know, we don't really think about it too hard, right? I think it's it's nice that the the trend is happening. And as a Korean American, like I would have never imagined myself working for a Korean company, work for a Korean restaurant company. When Mr. Saw, our founder, who started the company, the restaurant with one restaurant, and he's you know, magic sauces, we call them like the you know gold, golden sauce, um, that it he didn't really think about, oh, I'm gonna build this thing to 500 or or a thousand, right? He just really wanted to have great food at these one location. So as long as we we continue to you know live up to what he built, I think we'll be just fine, no matter where the trends go, right? When he visits, he still goes straight into the kitchen and he looks at the batter and he looks at you know how much and you know, and chicken size. And he's so like passionate about all of these things, you know, when it comes to chicken and how to brush the sauce and who's doing it right and who's not, and continues to train people. And I don't think it matters whether K pop is trendy or not, um, that we're just gonna always run great food and great restaurants, and that's what we're here for. Rachel, you know, so much of it is not about the right answer or the right uh thing, it's about timing, right? Luck, yeah. Yes, so and you know, when I was a brinker, it was challenging. Chili's they're thriving right now. And we had that three for ten platform when I was there. We developed it, you know, together. And it wasn't it was it was good, but it wasn't it. Now it's it, right? So you think about just whether it's a greater, you know, you could have the greatest idea, but the wrong timing, and it really doesn't make sense. And I feel like right now it's just great timing for our brand after 20 years.
Rachael Nemeth:Yeah, you know, I've been thinking so much lately about that concept of timing, and but I I really have reached this point as a professional where I think we use timing as a proxy for luck, and it really does come down to just and it doesn't discredit the work that you do, um, but it does give um it does sort of validate these moments where you're like, well, why didn't this work 10 years ago? Well, you know, not just the timing changed, but all these other factors changed, small and big, that led to this particular moment. So now that you're seizing that moment and and you're really growing um big, what systems are you putting in place right now to really ensure that Bonchan continues to grow beyond that trend, beyond that the kind of timing luck that you have?
Speaker 1:You know, and and Rachel, it's it's great that we're talking about this because what we put in is Opus. And and I'm not just you know selling you Opus, but really this whole training is something that we really I think it took me a little bit to kind of get here. And and as a marketer, it's not something that I think about, you know, first thing, right? So when I look at you know our set of restaurants and again who's doing well and who's not, really comes down to execution and food. And Korean food is not easy. Um, and not that any food is easy, but Korean food is really hard, especially if you're not a Korean. But when you go behind, you know, to back of our house, to our kitchens, there are no Koreans making this food, right? It's a diverse group of you know people making the food. So how do these people who did not grow up on this food, you know, make it right, identify that it's right, make sure that it tastes good, and do all of these things every day at all of our locations. And that requires a lot of training, a lot of learning, a lot of development. And um, you know, Opus is going to allow us to do that. So we're just now onboarding Opus. In fact, just this past week we had Banchon University, and we had uh uh one of the you know franchise operators that went through Bantan University uh spoke Vietnamese and she used Opus in Vietnamese and she did one of kind of the you know lessons in Vietnamese and and she said it was great, she said it was right. So one thing is to say, you know, something can translate this thing. Another thing to say it it was right and it was done right. And we're like, my gosh, this is just you know, this is just starting point of what we can really um kind of dream of, right? In making it happen because we do have a very diverse group of franchise operators, back of the house team members, um, different languages, different backgrounds, and this is going to serve us in such a way that it's going to become super meaningful and and really relatable, and they'll embrace the level of training that they'll take in no matter what language, you know, videos that that that we can upload to Opus. I mean, all of these things that we really are, you know, we're just you know going to embrace that that our team members, all of our operators are going to embrace, is is going to make this thing happen.
Rachael Nemeth:It's such a I love hearing that story. Uh I it makes me think about how many people, you know, it's it's very easy to associate a frontline team member as non-English speaking. Reportedly, 30% of restaurants have somebody who's, or 30% of the restaurant workforce doesn't speak English as their first language. That actually extends to the whole American desolate workforce. But we don't really think about the small business owner who's just in pursuit of the American dream and still learning the language, or maybe hasn't learned the language at all and chooses not to, but has the tools in order to run their business thoughtfully. And so it really is inspiring to hear that because frankly, like when we set out to build Opus, a lot of it was focused on the frontline team members. But over the years, I think we have seen the impact that we can have on the franchise owner too, through these simple tools. And I know that, you know, not everyone comes in with business experience. Sometimes you're teaching them that. So I I love hearing that. You know, I I want to stay in the vein of marketing for a minute. You know, you just shared you're investing heavily in training tech right now. Most marketers think of training. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but most marketers think of training as an HR or ops function. Um how do you think about employee training as a marketing tool? And, you know, maybe to put it differently, what did you see at Bonchan that made training a priority for you?
Speaker 1:Uh the gap between great restaurants and okay or good restaurants, right? It it wasn't about how we marketed the brand or marketed the location. It wasn't even about location. You know, we talk so much about great location, bad location. But really, when we looked at all of the data between, you know, good and great, it really came down to food. That food might be really good. Yeah. And that to make it good, it really requires good training and consistent training. And with all the turnover, and you know, and people rely so much on, especially cooks in the back, right? They rely on their muscle memory. But you know, everything that we do comes down to exact recipes and you know, and just measures. And so if you get it wrong, I've noticed how bad the food could be, right? Especially with Korean food. If you put a little too much soy sauce in a japche, it comes out you know darker than it should, and it doesn't look right, it's going to be salty. So all of these, you know, elements that are really critical in making great food requires great training. Now, as a marketer, that's the thing that we have to deliver. I think we we we rely on so many ways to drive traffic to the restaurants, right? All the digital ways and and um and and even the third parties that you know now we're you know spending so much dollars on, whether it's fees or or marketing, uh, because it's super competitive. You know, we do all of these things as a marketer to put people into the restaurant, but we often think of not think about the experience itself. And and to me, I think that's what really brings the guest back. They can we can push the people in, but then they gotta, you know, have a great experience and come out thinking, I'm gonna come back to this thing, right? And that's a marketer's job to make sure that we deliver on that great experience. So, you know, while you know training is critical, part of that is making sure that you know everybody executes consistently, but it's also important, you know, what product, what's in your menu, how do you do your menu, how do you create a really great experience for the guests from all of the marketing touch points that are in the restaurant? It's it's all interconnected. So even as a marketer, I can't say that you know, training is training's job, and you know, you got to figure that piece out. To me, it's it's the entire thing of this whole restaurant business that you know, marketer's job to certainly bring the people in, but it's also marketers' job to make sure the experience is great and people, you know, keep coming.
Rachael Nemeth:Well, it it's you know, I I think um a lot of companies, to your point, are seeing employees as an extension of their brand. And so um there's there's like the four walls that marketing that you can you can have control over, but ultimately training is what's gonna help these things come through when you're not looking. And so um uh it's interesting to hear your perspective on that. I'm curious. Looking at the restaurant industry today, where do you see brands that are going sideways with their marketing approach? Um, what are they prioritizing that actually is sort of undermining the long-term growth? Is it things like, you know, value menus? Is it something richer and deeper that that some of these brands maybe aren't seeing that that you see?
Speaker 1:Um you know, it's it's uh it's really hard because like all these great brands and it in within different categories, they all have their own challenges on, you know, how to kind of stay relevant and how to stay fresh and you know, and how to live up to kind of the brand promise that they have um that they have put out there. But I think, you know, again, what we tend to forget is what happens inside the restaurant. Um, and we focus so much on the on the what happens outside. I and even as a customer, you know, I often very much often experience the uh when I see something on Instagram, like a very, you know, compelling influencer video, like the best sushi restaurant in Dallas Fort Worth, you gotta come right now. It looks beautiful, looks amazing, you know. So like I flag it, I go, we gotta go, we gotta go. And then we go, and then it's not as exactly as the way the video portrays. Yeah. Right? So I worry about those kind of things because even as a customer, it's very easy for me to go, okay, that was not what that video or the influencer kind of shared with me. So I think while there's so many great ways to convince people to market to people, then then you have to really live up to it in within your four walls, is it's a thing. So um, I you know, and then of course it then it comes down to food. So, you know, you could also have beautiful decor. I mean, so many restaurants look beautiful these days, right? They have such picture-esque all of these things and be great presentation. And you know, Rachel, you've gone to these amazing restaurants with beautiful presentation, and then you eat it, and then you do you go, oh, I'm gonna come back for that. No, a lot of times I I don't go back, right? I keep going back to the same restaurant that I just love the food at, regardless of what the restaurant looks like. Yes, yes. So then when I go, well, that's me. So how can why would anybody everybody else be any different, right? So again, it just comes down to you know, within inside the restaurant, what happens? And it's really hard in in the franchise business to convince every one of your franchise partners to do that, you know, right? Because they they they're busy running restaurants and they often forget that there's also guests in there that they gotta provide hospitality and service and attend to and engage. And that's one of you know, kind of the um as as a marketer, I think we look at local restaurant marketing community, guest engagement is kind of the the bottom, you know. We're just worrying about getting people again in the restaurant. Um, so we we talk so much to our franchisees about own your community, please, right? Because Bonchan is still small that we don't look like uh McDonald's in every corner. Like we sometimes people don't even know that we're a chain. So, you know, I want people to have a delightful experience and really I it's another kind of the good to great difference is that the great restaurants really engage with their guests, they know their community, they know their neighborhood, they're known as the Korean restaurant in their neighborhood, and that's what we want. That's what that's what we want.
Rachael Nemeth:The something you said was so um interesting around how sometimes people come in, even come into a restaurant, they don't realize that Banchon is a chain. What a gift. I mean, to for something to feel so local that it's your neighborhood restaurant, I mean that's gotta be the ultimate challenge on how you keep that going as you grow to 500 units and then you do become you're already a multinational brand, but a household name. Um it it sounds like you the the spark is already there and and how do you retain it? And I I would imagine a lot of it just comes through with the kinds of franchisees that you're bringing on board too and and what sort of care and ownership they're bringing to the table.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And it is hard. And that is another thing, you know, when you set it back at Childees, we we work so hard to go, how do we become small again?
unknown:Right?
Rachael Nemeth:Yeah. You always want what you can't have.
Speaker 1:Yeah, when you have 1200 or 1,500 restaurants around the world, like how do you become small again? Yeah, it's um it's hard. It it cannot be created, right? You just have to be small to be small.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And and for Bancha over the 20 years, um, you know, we've got lots of different models out there, different ways our you know, our partners are you know operating within their community, and and we let them, we let them thrive. You know, really what's important is keeping it, you know, clean, keeping, you know, everything working, and making making sure the facility lives up to you know the standards in in providing you know healthy food. But outside of that, you know, we're not big into now. Everybody has to have this decor or the look, you know. Like I like having that look in that restaurant. Like, no guests are gonna go, like, I don't ever walk in and go, but this doesn't have the new logo, like this doesn't have the new wallpaper or the new like when do you ever think about that, right? Right. So I think sometimes when you become big and you become a big brand, you you worry about all of these things and you know, making sure, but I have 150 restaurants out there that look very different, and I love it, and it's fun. You know, do what works in your in your community and and for the franchisees, you know, create the space that you love, that you love going into. I'm not going in there every day, you're going in there every day. So make sure that you have all the things that you want in there and you run it the way you want, based on you know, all the support and and and the know-hows that we give you. So it is it is a it is a great balance and that and and I see that that's working. So I'm not big into, you know, certainly, you know, systems like Opus or Olo and the and the tech and you know, POS, those need to be consistent everywhere. But outside of that, you know, just you know, have a beautiful restaurant that, you know, with great people in there and make great food and uh and let's not worry about all of these things that big brands I think tend to spend a lot of time and money on.
Rachael Nemeth:Well, and and to your point, the training ensures just a consistency on the product side and and service side. But ultimately, we're living in a world where everybody is developing their own personal brand. And so you have to have these things come through, and I'm sure they're already coming through in the stores, things as simple as one store chooses to, you know, put a chalkboard outside to draw the locals. Who cares? And and, you know, alternatively in the back of house, when I walk through a kitchen and I see that um someone has a sort of like unbranded leaderboard that's like shouting out the employees of the month, and it I don't gripe because they didn't use the Opus leaderboard. I'm happy that they just have that sort of culture already that people care and cling to. It's more upsetting when people aren't bought into that and you have all of these, you know, um, kind of uh artificial things hanging around that no one's actually caring about. I liked the, I liked the ripped paper on the wall that everything's written on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I do too. I love those back of house boards where it's truly like, you know, that team driven and you know, that they love. And it's not, you know, my you know, uh weekly newsletter that's posted, right? Like I seriously, it's it's great.
Rachael Nemeth:So on that vein and and and drifting into leadership, um I'm curious. You have such a unique leadership team at Bonchon. It's it's largely women-led. Um, but I I doubt that that's the only thing that really makes your leadership team spark. I'm really want to know what what's the one thing that you're doing differently in developing people that you think that most CEOs are are overlooking today?
Speaker 1:Um, I think just knowing that there are leaders everywhere. Um, and you know, I we we're a very small team, we're very flat in that sense, and you know, every one of us here have wear many hats and do many jobs. And you know, even me as a CEO, I I mean I I don't even know how many. I probably have like nine drug reports, and so you know, people will probably tell me like that's too many, right? But um, but but that's okay because you know, again, we're we're uh we we we're tiny companies that have all of the things that big restaurant company would have. So we have the supply chain team, we have training team, you know, we have Bancho University, we have and and and there may be just a you know personal one. So like everyone here has to be a leader. Um and and and I think just just knowing that, and and because we we're all unique, you know, there isn't um, I don't have 10 marketers that you know do little things I have, you know, uh four, but they all have very unique jobs. So um, so even the you know, most kind of the junior marketer, but she's not junior because she manages all of our social, all of our local listings. I mean, she's got a big job day to day, she's got to, you know, work with our franchisees and all the locations. So I see her as a leader in in that. So so they're all experts in you know what they do, they're all leaders, and and I think we only kind of look at these like the leadership level to go, oh, how do you continue to elevate these people or or make sure that you get their input or there's decision-making process where only really the you know stakeholders or leaders are involved, and and when you work in such a small, flat organization, um, those kind of things you just go, you know, like just everybody's has something to all gotta dive in. Absolutely, and you know who who's the most critical is really our team of trainers. They bring in so much input and insight because they're in restaurants all the time. Sure. And they know exactly what should be done better. You know, they bring so many great ideas, so you gotta listen to them, you gotta, you know, and and what they do great is that they learn from one, then they take it to another because they're constantly out there working with our French AZs and and training and you know, helping them and supporting them. So, you know, and and yeah, they in a in a chart, they may be, you know, here, but they're all leaders in what they do. So I think just knowing that they everyone has it in them and don't just identify leaders as you know, based on titles.
Rachael Nemeth:Well, so then when you're spotting potential leaders, what are the two signals that that you look for?
Speaker 1:Um I think just you know, engagement, right? It's um so isn't like they, you know, we often talk about, especially like women, you know, people don't speak up or they don't, you know, they don't want to kind of, you know, provide lean in and and provide their input and these things, but it doesn't really matter. Men, women, I think I we see it all where they just um when they're not engaged, like it's it's kind of disappointing for them, me, right? So when when they're proactively engaging, it may not be their subject, but they want to ask a question or talk about something or you know, and I love that, and I see that as a great potential to somebody who's willing to learn. Um, because Rachel, you know, we're still learning, right? Even in our, you know, whatever journey in our career, right? There's you know, we we're constantly learning. So that gives me such a good, you know, understanding of oh, this person is still willing to learn, you know, asking really good questions, whether it matters to them or not, just that just that engaged, you know, spark in them, uh, that really tells me that they're it could be a really great leader and and potential. The other thing I think is kind of the the want. So I, you know, you see people that work really hard, do great work, but then there's something missing, like they may not really want want to do more.
Rachael Nemeth:They're just there because of circumstance.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Or or they may think what they are doing is enough, therefore they should get promoted, that therefore they hit all of the KPIs and their, you know, reviews or whatnot. But I think it there's when when when when there's not that want in in you, like I can I can see that and and um it disappoints me, especially when I see that in like young women, you know, they kind of kind of go, Yeah, I'm doing my work and I, you know, I I do an excellent job, I never miss deadlines, I'm always on, but at the same time, it's big difference when you actually then want to do more.
Rachael Nemeth:And yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. How much of that is just being drained out of us though, as women?
Speaker 1:I think that happens too, right? We're all really tired, yeah. But um, but I still want more. So I'll go, and and I think that's a lot of times the you you know the biggest difference in us is that you can say that you want it, but you really want to want it, right? There's action that follows that want versus oh, I think I'm I deserve it and I've done a good job, so so I want the next level. No, I think there's more that has to come with that. And it's really hard to kind of explain, Rachel, but I think you you know what I mean, right?
Rachael Nemeth:Yeah, I do. And and also what you were talking about around this willingness to learn, it made me think: is there a difference really between willingness to learn and curiosity? Are they the same thing?
Speaker 1:Or no, there's a difference, definitely. I mean, curiosity is just to kind of curious to know, and then got it, right? Whether to like, you know, because I don't really know, or you know, I'm I'm curious to know if I'm right or wrong, because there's a lot of that curiosity too, right? I get that from my kids all the time. They want to know if they're right or wrong, right? So they're curious, right? And they want to prove us wrong, like you don't know, you know, mommy and daddy, like you know, this kind of thing. And and and uh so I think there's there is difference, and then willingness to learn is you know, certainly you're curious, but I think you're then willing to kind of you know think about it and really absorb it and go, then then what? What more? What now? How does that impact me? And I think you know, you probably do that a lot, right? And we constantly reflect based on that learning. And now that I I know this, like what you know, what happens, or I also. Often run into situations where I learn about people and it takes me to interesting areas when I ask questions about you know why they're doing certain things or you know how they got here, and and then a lot of times that also triggers the kind of the next thing I go, oh my gosh, I know so and so loves to do this. I love to make an intro with you and this person because I think there's something that you know you can work together one day or you can you know meet up and and connect, like these kind of things, and and I love that and I think that's the difference between really learning, listening and learning versus just being curious to go, okay, right? Kind of what's the answer.
Rachael Nemeth:Well, and I mean I guess that brings me down to to leadership develop or development on the team member level. How do you, you know, sort of indoctrinate a culture where there's constant willingness to learn? And is there any sort of secret to that? Because when you're employed, I mean, how many people do you employ at Banchon at this point?
Speaker 1:Uh, we we were, I think we're about 45 people at the support center. Yeah. But of course we have our restaurant, you know, uh numbers too.
Rachael Nemeth:But you know, you have the support center, you have, you know, 10 to 30 employees per location that's, you know, hundreds of thousands of people one day. How do you create a culture where there's a willingness to learn? Uh, you know, and I'm saying this as the founder of Opus, it's not as simple as implementing Opus. There's something meatier behind than just implementing a technology. What is it about um, yeah, creating that, that, that culture of learning?
Speaker 1:Um, you know, uh, I know like one of the questions I think um we kind of you know thought about as as part of the discussion here today is what um what what did I learn at Brinker or China at my you know big company, big organization. And and Brinker had a great culture. And towards the end of my career, we implemented this culture of accountability. And um part of culture of accountability, one of the things that um really that I you know I still um really respect is that trust matters. And with that trust has to come with a very safe environment where people can both, you know, willing to take feedback, willing to learn, willing to sort of, you know, go out of their way to just explore, right? And um, and I think that's what I I like to believe that that's what we have here. Um while we had a great culture at Everett Gurren, because I'd been there so many years and there's so many changes, there was a time when it was really super competitive internally, and I hated it. And I was too young to know that that was not good for me. And I didn't, I really looking back, I really literally was thinking about it, Rachel, this morning that I didn't thrive in that type of environment. Although, and and and I remember my uh boss at the time uh called it tough love. And I think that's such a main thing to say, too, right? I don't ever call it tough love. Love is love, it doesn't have to be tough. That's what love is, right? Um, but you know, it was like so competitive within my peers, within my group, we're always competing, even though we're you know working on different things, it was and you know, he had his favorites, and it's just like it was so toxic in that sense that it was so unnecessary and um and highly just unproductive. So I think just not having any of that here, and um, and and we always emphasize on because everybody's a leader here and everybody owns you know their discipline and and and their empowered to make decisions all day, every day. I make sure I always turn back to them and go, what's the right thing to do here? And that's what it comes down to. So I think that sort of attitude when they ask for themselves, like, what's the right thing to do here? And then they, you know, then that kind of also leads them to learning more because when when especially when you're dealing with so many franchisees, they all do things a little bit differently. There's always something to learn.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Um, I mean, so much. And and and I think with that sort of that attitude, you're gonna be, and at the time there was this kind of a roadblock at our organization too, with different leaders. It was like this is Ban Chan Wei, you gotta do it this way. We've we've mixed all that. Banchan We is to do it the right way that you feel is right, you know, and um, and it's different, it's different for every restaurant, every sort of you know, operator. Um, but also we have you know, these things you maintain consistently as a brand, but outside of that, there's you know, we don't have to, especially when they're not right, and that really bugs me too. Like, oh my gosh, this wasn't even right, so why do we mandate it, right? Um, and and just not having that sort of space. So I think this allows everybody to have space, think differently, learn, and and that's okay. Like you learn and you go, oh, so this is better, or that was wrong. I think that's totally okay, it's totally safe. And we we have we trust one another. So without having trust and having safe space, I think then you lose the ability to learn and want to do more. So it it they all kind of you know have to come together in that way.
Rachael Nemeth:So there's so much meat in what you just said. And I one thing that really resonated with me is you know how you talked about there was this culture of competition. Um, you know, I'm competitive as a business owner. I think it just sort of comes with being a CEO, um, but not um, it's not like the killer instinct competition that I think you're talking about. And um from like a training perspective, I think about competition a lot. You know, there's things like gamification and all that. But that's healthy. Well, I actually think that sometimes competition can be a proxy for bad engagement. Because if you walk into a room, or let's say you walk into a soccer game and you're sitting in the bleachers and you turn to the person next to you and you say, Are you competitive? Well, half the time someone's gonna say no, or or it depends on the context. But if you look at anybody and you say, Are you a learner? Everyone's gonna say yes. So to get the even playing field, you have to start with the way that everyone wants to learn, which is it reaches them in the way that matters to them. So, for you're right, like for some people, competition really works.
Speaker 2:It drives them in.
Rachael Nemeth:And seeing that leaderboard and seeing how people are are stacking up against each other, but in so many instances, it's not a universal means to engage your people. And I love that you're talking about trust as a way to get there, which is hard to get and hard to build that culture. I'm sure you know, you walk in and there's some scars that you have to.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's constant, right, Rachel? Like trust is not something that you just build and it's done, right? It's it's constant because you can so easily break that trust without without even knowing sometimes, right? So I think it's it's it's a it's something that you have to consistently work on and and talk about and and give feedback to each other to make sure that you know that that trust continues. And and it it is it is um it's hard. You know, as far as you know, competition goes, like I think it's it could it I think it's still fun, right? It's not like just because we have this kind of uh learning culture, you know, we we we uh trust each other, it doesn't mean that we don't actually um go compete for something. You're right, like as a as a company, as a CEO, you want you want to compete, you want to win. Um, you know, and we always look for ways where we can all win kind of together. Uh so we talk a lot about, you know, how do we all win? Like how do how do we win? How do the franchisees win? You know, how do the guests win? Like what what what's how do we all win? But at the same time, we do need to, you know, we have key metrics that we gotta deliver on. At the end of the day, we're running business and we gotta make money. So, you know, so there is always that, and we're always striving uh to that, but without having to sort of, you know, compete within, I guess, I guess that's what really is important for us.
Rachael Nemeth:Well, um, I I have one last question before our lightning round, Susie. You know, thinking about this conversation and and you've so you've beautifully wrapped your experience as a CMO into the role of CEO. Um I'm curious what is a leadership skill that you had to develop yourself that you know now you're prioritizing teaching other people.
Speaker 1:Um I uh I had a great um, I had a great uh boss. She's still my boss because you know she's just my uh my super boss lady. Um is Edith N. Ramey. Rachel, I would love for you to meet her one day. I was on our team at Chili's, I was on our team at On the Water, and we're still great friends. And and she's just so bold. And I think she was working through her career before we even talked about all the women and in restaurant business. And and I I didn't really think about it then on what all of the you know traits that she had. Um, she was fast at decision making. She was, you know, she she she had a vision, so she didn't worry too much about the details. And I love that about her. It's like, but I worry about all the details. So and and she she had tremendous trust in her people. She she provided direction, and this is you know, she would provide kind of that desired result that we all need to, you know, get to. And then she kind of let everybody free and and get the work done. And I love that about her. So at the time I just loved working for her, she energized me. Um, and but now thinking back, it's like, wow, she was great at so many of these things that and and I'm not even sure even she even knows it, right? And she just recently uh was uh CMO of Six Flags, and they went through a merger, so you know she's um she's she's uh taking some time off. But I think that's something that um that I don't know that I didn't realize that I really looked up to her in so many ways. And I think about her when I have to make tough decisions, I go, what would what would we call her EA? What would EA do? So I think it's great to have that sort of, especially for our women, have that person in your sort of in your mind that you kind of think about, even though you may not be going through kind of a you know regular mentorship kind of thing. We talk so much about having mentors and things, but I think just having that strong person that kind of you you think about and and that kind of keeps you um grounded in in the things that you do and helps you kind of reflect on the things, I think is really important. So just having that sort of relationship, and I hope every one of us, every especially women, have can experience those leaders, right? And be be um be able to kind of get learn from from from those people. I'm sure, Rachel, you have so many people that come to your mind um that that you think about. But I think you know, oftentimes we build relationships, but we don't we don't really think about these kind of the key people, and in and and I always go, who do I want to be when I grow up? I still think about it, right? Who do I want to be? Like what kind of CEO do I want to be? What's you know, and and I think those kind of the traits we we we uh we need to really be very conscious of and and activate when it's necessary. And it's so hard, right, Rachel, because it's so hard to take your own advice.
Rachael Nemeth:And I often think I would give you this advice that I cannot follow myself, but well, it I always think about it as I I sort of always feel these moments where I'm hitting my next chapter as CEO. Um, whether something in the business changed or something outside the business or something personally, or maybe I was given feedback that really just changed the way that I think about the way that I work and who I work with. So I I totally feel you where it's not just about this one kind of isolated trait. It's all of the people that have come before you who have built this bedrock, and and really it's almost like the hard part of being a leader is making sure you're taking the time to reflect and think about those people and saying, okay, yeah, what would so-and-so do?
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, seriously, right? Because you also know, yeah, you know, but I think about like as a leader, what not to do. Right? And like as much as there's things you need to do really well, there's also like key things. So I think if you can even avoid the things that you you shouldn't do, be really good at you know, as as a leader.
Rachael Nemeth:Uh I'm gonna ask you five questions, and the challenge for you, it's called Lightning Round for a reason, is to answer in one or two words, and you can't really explain yourself. Um, all right, so we'll start easy. What was your first job?
Speaker 1:Uh cashier. At my parents' door.
Rachael Nemeth:Okay, got it. I was curious. I was gonna ask the follow-up. Uh what's a food trend that you are completely over?
Speaker 1:The Tong Hulu. Have you seen it? What is it? The candy fruit?
Rachael Nemeth:Oh. That's a first. I haven't heard that one, but I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:Yes, you've seen that in Manhattan. Terrible for your teeth.
Rachael Nemeth:Um, what's something that everyone thinks is relaxing that actually stresses you out?
Speaker 1:Sitting around doing nothing.
Rachael Nemeth:Spoken like a true CEO. Well, so then here's the opposite. What's something that you do to decompress?
Speaker 1:Multitask.
Rachael Nemeth:Um, all right, we're gonna finish it off with uh what is a skill that you're going back to basics on?
Speaker 1:Listening.
Rachael Nemeth:Yeah, that's an oldie but goody. Um All right. Well, on that note, uh thank you, Susie, for being here. Really appreciate you, and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much.
